FOOTBALL English Premier League 23/24 Discussion

[Wolfie]

FFP is a reality check for most clubs I reckon.
I’m surprised so many clubs have survived up to now with poor profit & sustainability measures in place.
EFL television rights doubling the income for championship clubs this season so that’ll help.
Gone are the days of getting wealthy benefactors and buying your way out of trouble.

Plenty of sides now have multi billionaire owners but you cant spend your way to success like Blackburn did, and then Citeh and Chelsea after them in the days before FFP. Newcastle with their loaded, questionable owner will be a good test because they can match anyone, but they cant afford not to keep getting champions league football or they will just drop back to the pack. They have to consistently be successful now to get up there with the big boys on a long term basis. And that will be difficult because you are going to have Liverpool and Chelsea at least will improve dramatically this season. That 2nd to 4th place spot is going to be hotly contested between Liverpool, Arsenal, Chelsea, United, Newcastle.

 

[Fitzy]

Pretty worried about this season. Our owners are scared to death of breaching FFP and it seems we arent getting any new players. Lopetegui constantly complaining to the press. Genuinely worried we are facing another relegation battle.

We were pretty good last night. Rennes had a decent season last year and beat Forest 5-0. Look I think we might be that mid to lower half of the prem but if we play like yesterday more often than not we will stay up and comfortably so.

Yesterday I saw a team that probably doesn’t need a heavy amount of investment. I was pretty happy with the display and players at our disposal. Probably a centre back short and Alex Scott would be great but that’s not happening. Can’t really see anyone else coming providing extensive value (in our budget) than what we have already.

Hypothetically let’s say we signed Elvedi and Alex Scott we would have a pretty good squad there. Reality is the club just doesn’t have the purchasing power it did start of last year and the years we were in and abouts the Euro places. For where the club roughly sits in the rep levels these days it’s a pretty good squad. We spent heaps last year and it failed miserably, whilst there might be zero investment this year I can’t say I’m to concerned anymore.

Our midfield would be genuinely Scott away from being about as good as we could get it with cash. Up front nobody would make the side better with the money we have. Both Ait Nouri and Bueno seem to have improved on the left and Doherty and Semedo on the right is decent. Centre backs we are one short but our current options are definitely avoid relegation quality.

I think last year was severe under performance and I think there is a better balanced side and I think some players have really clicked an extra little gear.

I’m praying yesterday wasn’t some insane over performance and there is a little bit of substance behind it and if so we will be fine. A little bit of investment on top of that and we will avoid relegation (comfortably) players will continue to develop and hopefully ffp will sort itself out a little bit and the club will fix its seemingly dire cash flow issue.

 

[Renegade]

Newcastle have done some good business so far. They've just bought livramento from Southampton who is a quality fullback despite being 20. Have also signed tonali and Barnes from Leicester.

 

[Wolfie]

Lopetegui gone from Wolves. Big blow this close to the start of the season. He's been acting like a spoiled brat in some ways but our owners do seemed to have pulled the rug from under him so in some ways I can't blame him.

Looks like Gary O'Neil is going to be our new manager. Terrible choice, think we are nailed on for relegation. Can't understand how owners like ours who are a multi billion dollar company can mismanage our funds so badly we can't even afford a transfer fee.

 

[Super Freak]

Arsenal have got David Raya.

Not a bad signing.

 

[The True King]

Arsenal have got David Raya.

Not a bad signing.

Upgrade on Ramsdale but its not a significant one. I wonder at what point Arteta decides his real #1.

Newcastle have done some good business so far. They've just bought livramento from Southampton who is a quality fullback despite being 20. Have also signed tonali and Barnes from Leicester.

This is interesting, I'd argue the upside of the Barnes buy has been negated by losing ASM. He was their wildcard and Barnes isn't that guy. I'm really intrigued to see Tonali in the prem, I really am not sure he'll fit the style or physicality of the league, certainly won't get the time he got on the ball in Serie A. Haven't been too many elite box to box midfielders come to the prem from Serie A and do well so he's up against it. Bruno G will be doing a hell of a lot to hold that midfield together imo.

Overall I suspect they're shaping up to go 4-4-2. Howe is a disciple of Simeone and the squad building indicates that's the way he's going. I hope Livramento can deliver on his potential, that injury was really unfortunate and kid is talented. Good understudy to Trippier in any case, should get a run in a season or two.

 

[Mustafur]

Plenty of sides now have multi billionaire owners but you cant spend your way to success like Blackburn did, and then Citeh and Chelsea after them in the days before FFP. Newcastle with their loaded, questionable owner will be a good test because they can match anyone, but they cant afford not to keep getting champions league football or they will just drop back to the pack. They have to consistently be successful now to get up there with the big boys on a long term basis. And that will be difficult because you are going to have Liverpool and Chelsea at least will improve dramatically this season. That 2nd to 4th place spot is going to be hotly contested between Liverpool, Arsenal, Chelsea, United, Newcastle.

Disagree, all they need is their own Etihad equivalent sponsorship(like Aramco) and inflate it to high water to keep the money rolling in, Afterall that's what City do now, their stadium sponsorship is the highest in sport for example and generally NFL teams dominate that far beyond what is seen in Football, Champions league while it helps isn't mandatory, especially by the time the next TV deal comes as the EPL money will only dwarf it more overtime.

Sponsorship completely circumvents FFP and is a giant loophole.

 

[Wolfie]

If that was the case more clubs than Citeh would be doing it.

 

[Mustafur]

If that was the case more clubs than Citeh would be doing it.

What do you mean if it was the case, it literally is the case Eithad is owned by the same people who own the City Football group, it's not like they are even hiding it(well they try poorly).

There are others that do it to a lesser scale like Bayern Munich with Adidas paying for shirt sponsorship despite also owning a part of the club, PSG do the same thing with Qatar airways, both clubs have been found guilty of wrong doing regarding this in the past and just repackage it to circumvent the rules, PSGs Qatar airways deal is worth the same as a run to the UCL final at 70 million euros a year.

 

[The True King]

They all use the sponsorship loophole. City just do it better than the rest and are experts at not being caught.

 

[Mustafur]

They all use the sponsorship loophole. City just do it better than the rest and are experts at not being caught.

That is still to be decided obviously, the obvious link between the Abu Dhabi Government owned Eithad and the soo called Privately owned Abu Dhabi United group which is claimed to be privately owned, despite leaked internal documents proving the government runs it which started the whole shit storm and could very well come back to them.

 

[Wolfie]

What do you mean if it was the case, it literally is the case Eithad is owned by the same people who own the City Football group, it's not like they are even hiding it.

There are others that do it to a lesser scale like Bayern Munich with Adidas paying for shirt sponsorship despite also owning a part of the club, PSG do the same thing with Qatar airways, both clubs have been found guilty of wrong doing regarding this in the past and just repackage it to circumvent the rules, PSGs Qatar airways deal is worth the same as a run to the UCL final at 70 million euros a year.

Like i said, barely anyone is doing it on a scale that would make a difference plus we were talking premier league. You have named one club that exploited things on a massive scale. There are dodgy dealings everywhere in football, but its a fact you cant spend your way to the top like you could in the days before FFP.

You have pretty much proved my point though. I was talking about teams with rich owners breaking into that top 6-8 positions. Every team you have mentioned are the dominant clubs in their competitions. Lets take say Crystal Palace. Even if they could secure a big enough sponsorship to buy top players ( which is extremely unlikely anyway, they arent marketable enough ) where are they going to make enough money outside of that to run a club, and then pay a squad at that level about 250 million Euros a year, without making a loss every year.

If it was as simple as you are saying every team would be at it and they arent. In theory its possible, in reality, its not going to happen. In the days before FFP though, owners like Sir Jack Walker, or Roman Abromovich, or Sheik Mansour could literally thrown money at their projects without repercussions. FFP stopped that.

 

[Mustafur]

Like i said, barely anyone is doing it on a scale that would make a difference plus we were talking premier league. You have named one club that exploited things on a massive scale. There are dodgy dealings everywhere in football, but its a fact you cant spend your way to the top like you could in the days before FFP.

You have pretty much proved my point though. I was talking about teams with rich owners breaking into that top 6-8 positions. Every team you have mentioned are the dominant clubs in their competitions. Lets take say Crystal Palace. Even if they could secure a big enough sponsorship to buy top players ( which is extremely unlikely anyway, they arent marketable enough ) where are they going to make enough money outside of that to run a club, and then pay a squad at that level about 250 million Euros a year, without making a loss every year.

If it was as simple as you are saying every team would be at it and they arent. In theory its possible, in reality, its not going to happen. In the days before FFP though, owners like Sir Jack Walker, or Roman Abromovich, or Sheik Mansour could literally thrown money at their projects without repercussions. FFP stopped that.

I already answered that though.

Do what City are doing, not many can do that because their owners are not that level of billionaire, but the Saudis are well beyond anything ever seen at this stage, if Abu Dhabi can do it, the Saudis with a near endless supply of money and significant business connections can easily do similar.

Heck all it would require is some private Saudi Billionaire to be incentivised by the state to sponsor them and it's done, FFP wouldn't even be able to do anything without concrete evidence.

The moment States were are allowed to own teams, it's over.

 

[Wolfie]

I already answered that though.

Do what City are doing, not many can do that because their owners are not that level of billionaire, but the Saudis are well beyond anything ever seen at this stage, if Abu Dhabi can do it, the Saudis with a near endless supply of money and significant business connections can easily do similar.

Heck all it would require is some private Saudi Billionaire to be incentivised by the state to sponsor them and it's done, FFP wouldn't even be able to do anything without concrete evidence.

Thats the point though like i said, in theory it works, in reality, in over a decade that FFP has been in place in the premier league, nobody has exploited that loophole to consistently break in with the so called " big six " of the premier league. Its still pretty much always Citeh, United, Arsenal, Liverpool, Chelsea and Spurs. You get the odd side have a good year or two but thats it. Newcastle with their Saudi money should be able to do it, but you arent suddenly going to get another 7 or 8 teams getting massive sponsorships ( and we would easily be talking around 300 or 400 million pounds a year to cover transfers and wages, even using amortisation ) to allow them to challenge. Its simply not going to suddenly change.

I dont know why you keep using Citeh though. They are already at the top level. They dont have to break into it. My point was about teams trying to break into it and i can only see Newcastle with Bin Salman having the capability to fund it.

 

[ZTop]

I finally got around to binge watching ted lasso the last couple weeks. I've really enjoyed it, what did everything think?

In some respects you can relate him to Ange Postecoglou with being a foreigner and also believer of total football.

On another note, I'm looking forward to seeing how Anges spurs go this year, they have showed good signs in the pre season, especially dominating Barca this morning despite having run out a b side team and eventually they were run down but there were glimpses. I think if they could get another good centre back it would really help. And the sooner the kane distraction is gone the better

I enjoyed watching most of Celtics games last year on kayo, how will I be able to watch spurs this year?

 

[Mustafur]

Thats the point though like i said, in theory it works, in reality, in over a decade that FFP has been in place in the premier league, nobody has exploited that loophole to consistently break in with the so called " big six " of the premier league. Its still pretty much always Citeh, United, Arsenal, Liverpool, Chelsea and Spurs. You get the odd side have a good year or two but thats it. Newcastle with their Saudi money should be able to do it, but you arent suddenly going to get another 7 or 8 teams getting massive sponsorships ( and we would easily be talking around 300 or 400 million pounds a year to cover transfers and wages, even using amortisation ) to allow them to challenge. Its simply not going to suddenly change.

I dont know why you keep using Citeh though. They are already at the top level. They dont have to break into it. My point was about teams trying to break into it and i can only see Newcastle with Bin Salman having the capability to fund it.

That last thing you said is why, no mare private billionaire has the money these days to do it, because it requires 3rd parties to circumvent it, which is perfect for nation states.

We haven't seen anyone change the top order because until now only Abu Dhabi was in it, now we got the Saudis with Newcastle it's a different thing altogether, all FFP does at current is stop the private billionaires from doing what City did, since FFP was introduced City have gotten even more dominant because the rules don't apply to them due to how easy it is to find way around it using the state.

 

[Wolfie]

I said plenty of teams have billionaire owners and they cant break in because off FFP. Its not going to happen. Remove FFP and the playing field gets levelled because then any team can spend if they want to and have the money. My whole initial point. You disagreed with it. But you are basically just saying what i've said all along. And as i said, Newcastle are possibly the outlier in this situation.

 

[Mustafur]

I said plenty of teams have billionaire owners and they cant break in because off FFP. Its not going to happen. Remove FFP and the playing field gets levelled because then any team can spend if they want to and have the money. My whole initial point. You disagreed with it. But you are basically just saying what i've said all along. And as i said, Newcastle are possibly the outlier in this situation.

No, I was talking strictly about how Newcastle can grow regardless of results thanks to their owner being a state and you tried to push it into your FFP argument which I wasn't even talking about.

Newcastle is the outlier, the only question is whether they go that route or not because they easily can, FFP will not stop them like it would with Private billionaire owners.