NEWS Versatile Bird no lock to stay centre

[Morkel]

The point stands, if Bird takes McGuire’s spot, who does his 15 runs and 35 tackles? Even if McGuire goes to prop, that means Bird has to do the work of whichever prop gets displaced.

Just about every team has a lock that is either a workhorse, or a damaging impact player, and there is a reason for that. The work needs to get split between 6 forwards, you reduce that to 5 and they then have to do 15-20% extra work to compensate. And it’ll be compounded if Oates moves to the forwards (or leaves) and we don’t have a back like Moga making the bustling kick returns.

Just think that Jack Bird is like a knife, and a very sharp one, why blunt him and try to turn him in to a hammer.

 

[Alec]

The point stands, if Bird takes McGuire’s spot, who does his 15 runs and 35 tackles? Even if McGuire goes to prop, that means Bird has to do the work of whichever prop gets displaced.

Just about every team has a lock that is either a workhorse, or a damaging impact player, and there is a reason for that. The work needs to get split between 6 forwards, you reduce that to 5 and they then have to do 15-20% extra work to compensate. And it’ll be compounded if Oates moves to the forwards (or leaves) and we don’t have a back like Moga making the bustling kick returns.

Just think that Jack Bird is like a knife, and a very sharp one, why blunt him and try to turn him in to a hammer.

Yeah, I'm kinda worried about how that will work too. Probably a lot more ball movement.

I think his most useful position would be fullback. His best is probably centre, but long term that's only worth going with at rep level with no salary cap.

 

[Wolfie]

The point stands, if Bird takes McGuire’s spot, who does his 15 runs and 35 tackles? Even if McGuire goes to prop, that means Bird has to do the work of whichever prop gets displaced.

Just about every team has a lock that is either a workhorse, or a damaging impact player, and there is a reason for that. The work needs to get split between 6 forwards, you reduce that to 5 and they then have to do 15-20% extra work to compensate. And it’ll be compounded if Oates moves to the forwards (or leaves) and we don’t have a back like Moga making the bustling kick returns.

Just think that Jack Bird is like a knife, and a very sharp one, why blunt him and try to turn him in to a hammer.

You are taking it though as if Bird will play as a like for like replacement for moose. He wont. Our style will alter. He isnt going to be a battering ram so we wont be blunting his game. We don't have to play with a lock the way every other team does.

 

[Morkel]

You are taking it though as if Bird will play as a like for like replacement for moose. He wont. Our style will alter. He isnt going to be a battering ram so we wont be blunting his game. We don't have to play with a lock the way every other team does.

Then who is going to shoulder the workload that is normally attributed to the lock? It’s not like we can just choose to make less tackles and have less runs. Unless we want to lose by 50 every week.

 

[Super Freak]

A big part of lock is the workload that comes with it. That's the reason why they are so valuable in fantasy games, because of how many tackles they have to make.

To me, Bird at lock is a mistake.

Play him at fullback or play him at left centre and give him a license to roam like we did with Hodgo.

 

[Wolfie]

Then who is going to shoulder the workload that is normally attributed to the lock? It’s not like we can just choose to make less tackles and have less runs. Unless we want to lose by 50 every week.

Birds defence is fine imo even at lock. But like I said before, we won't be playing with a lock like every other team will be if that's where Bird ends up so the workload will be different. We don't need him to be a Finucane or a Mcguire type lock, we will be asking him to be a Hanley type lock so we shouldnt be comparing him to locks most teams play with because he just wont be like them.

 

[Wolfie]

A big part of lock is the workload that comes with it. That's the reason why they are so valuable in fantasy games, because of how many tackles they have to make.

To me, Bird at lock is a mistake.

Play him at fullback or play him at left centre and give him a license to roam like we did with Hodgo.

Wayne I would guess has a particular way he wants us to play if we have Bird at lock which will differ from the rest of the competition.

 

[Super Freak]

Birds defence is fine imo even at lock. But like I said before, we won't be playing with a lock like every other team will be if that's where Bird ends up so the workload will be different. We don't need him to be a Finucane or a Macguire type lock, we will be asking him to be a Hanley type lock so we shouldnt be comparing him to locks most teams play eith because he just wont be like them.

How would the workload be different?

Teams will be running players at him to increase his workload and tire him out.

 

[Wolfie]

How would the workload be different?

Teams will be running players at him to increase his workload and tire him out.

Because he isnt going to be taking constant hitups like most locks do. They practically play like Props now most of them. Bird wont be. Players like Hanley and Smith coped with it and were excellent in that role, Bird will too imo.

 

[Super Freak]

Because he isnt going to be taking constant hitups like most locks do. They practically play like Props now most of them. Bird wont be. Players like Hanley and Smith coped with it and were excellent in that role, Bird will too imo.

It's the defensive workload that's the concern. A lot of locks these days don't make a lot of hitups anyway, but they do make a lot of tackles.

Playing in the middle, you can't get away with not tackling. Teams will be running players at him to get his numbers up and tire him out which is likely going to reduce his effectiveness in attack.

We can stop that by playing him in a different position and giving him the same role.

Hanley and Smith also played in a very different time.

 

[Lockysillegitimatechild]

Then who is going to shoulder the workload that is normally attributed to the lock? It’s not like we can just choose to make less tackles and have less runs. Unless we want to lose by 50 every week.

We can't choose who tackles and runs less? Then why aren't players like ash Taylor, nikorima and Thurston the top tacklers in their team? And we can choose who runs less, we just don't pass them the ball. There's more to defensive structure then standing in a line and saying you "stand here" in the nrl. Certain players will get involved at certain stages throughout the tackle and will play a certain role in it (eg twist onto back, wrap up ball, take the legs, roll off last, rush up, hold back, etc) and certain players will be positioned in certain areas in relation to the play the ball (not just middle, left and right). This is why the same players make the most and least tackles every game. By the end of the season If McGuire moves to prop and lodge to the bench the workload of lodge starting compared to bird starting would be easily spread out (defensively bird would be able to match lodge statistically, he would maybe make 1 o runs 2 less runs, plus lodge would be coming off the bench anyway)

After watching the game tonight I am coming to like the idea of bird at lock. We aren't going to beat the storm or cowboys to a premiership at their own game. They have the best big men in the game. Last week we exposed them with sharp lines and late footwork in the middle. IF, and that is a big if for a reason, TPJ or lodge can withhold an onslaught of the power game those teams bring, along with our bench rotation props, then we can expose them with inside balls, line running, late footwork, ball playing-something bird can bring, on top of energy and aggressive line speed or finishing to tackles.

I would love if we beat the cowboys and storm with a big power game, but it won't happen. Aggression and line speed will slow it down but we need something differently to beat them in the middle...

 

[Morkel]

Because he isnt going to be taking constant hitups like most locks do. They practically play like Props now most of them. Bird wont be. Players like Hanley and Smith coped with it and were excellent in that role, Bird will too imo.

I disagree that he'll be as effective as you think he'll be after making 25 - 35 tackles as well as the constant up & back that he'll have to do on every defensive play. But even dismissing that aspect, who takes the runs that a lock would normally take but Bird won't? It's not as simple as "we'll just play a different style". The opposition won't be changing their style if it means their 6 forwards versus out 5 gives them a massive advantage up front, they'll be piling on the metres, our pack will be fatigued from all the extra work, and Bird won't even have a chance to employ this supposed "different style". He'll be coughing his guts up behind the in-goal.

 

[Morkel]

We can't choose who tackles and runs less? Then why aren't players like ash Taylor, nikorima and Thurston the top tacklers in their team? And we can choose who runs less, we just don't pass them the ball. There's more to defensive structure then standing in a line and saying you "stand here" in the nrl. Certain players will get involved at certain stages throughout the tackle and will play a certain role in it (eg twist onto back, wrap up ball, take the legs, roll off last, rush up, hold back, etc) and certain players will be positioned in certain areas in relation to the play the ball (not just middle, left and right). This is why the same players make the most and least tackles every game. By the end of the season If McGuire moves to prop and lodge to the bench the workload of lodge starting compared to bird starting would be easily spread out (defensively bird would be able to match lodge statistically, he would maybe make 1 o runs 2 less runs, plus lodge would be coming off the bench anyway)

After watching the game tonight I am coming to like the idea of bird at lock. We aren't going to beat the storm or cowboys to a premiership at their own game. They have the best big men in the game. Last week we exposed them with sharp lines and late footwork in the middle. IF, and that is a big if for a reason, TPJ or lodge can withhold an onslaught of the power game those teams bring, along with our bench rotation props, then we can expose them with inside balls, line running, late footwork, ball playing-something bird can bring, on top of energy and aggressive line speed or finishing to tackles.

I would love if we beat the cowboys and storm with a big power game, but it won't happen. Aggression and line speed will slow it down but we need something differently to beat them in the middle...

We won last week because of our power game. We stuck it to them, the supposed best in the business, that's how we won. That's how we were able to have a bit of room in attack, how we were able to fatigue them so TPJ could barge over, and Roberts could step through them. We had numbers in the tackles, we wrestled them around to slow down their PTB's, and we got up in their faces to chop them down before they had momentum. That's all the work of our forwards.

Without all of the forwards contributing, we'll simply be overpowered, like we were against the Dragons. No amount of passes at the line, late footwork, inside balls, and tricky plays will matter if we're getting smashed the moment we catch the ball. For those things to work, we need space, we need momentum, and 5 forwards vs 6 isn't going to give us that.

 

[Splinter]

It's the defensive workload that's the concern. A lot of locks these days don't make a lot of hitups anyway, but they do make a lot of tackles.

Playing in the middle, you can't get away with not tackling. Teams will be running players at him to get his numbers up and tire him out which is likely going to reduce his effectiveness in attack.

We can stop that by playing him in a different position and giving him the same role.

Hanley and Smith also played in a very different time.

Best lock in the game is Taumalolo and his defense is not fantastic. Brilliant power runner of the football though.

 

[Skyblues87]

Maguire isn't a prop . We need size up front, thats how the game is going

Maybe someone like Napa. Could maybe afford to lose Kahu now that Isaako is firing. This plus Thaiday retiring would free up cap space

 

[007]

No, Bird is not a solution at lock. It will create problems if he is a full time 13.

Centre is for him, fullback is wasted, not sharp enough laterally and too big to be a half or 5/8.

Bennett is speaking in terms of filling in everybody calm down.

 

[Huge]

No, he is the former Rabbitohs coach.

And I'M the guy who jumps on people for mistakes !!! Jesus, you're good ha ha

 

[Super Freak]

And I'M the guy who jumps on people for mistakes !!! Jesus, you're good ha ha

I don't deny that I do it every now and then. Difference with me is, I’ll own up to it..